Flying Past Congested Cities

Traffic_congestion
On October 24, 2006, results from a survey sponsored by WRAL and the News & Observer reported fairly strong interest in mass transit options for the Triangle by residents. The survey included approximately 600 likely voters and among many political questions, asked what the region’s biggest problems are. 28% of those surveyed selected “controlling growth/development” while 26% stated “Traffic congestion”. Education ranked third with 16% of responses while all other issues ranked in single digits. Additional questions asked about citizens’ likelihood to use rail mass transit, a regional bus system, carpooling, and HOV lanes. This survey, which seemed to have a reasonably small amount of bias, concludes that there is strong interest in improving the Triangle’s transportation options.

The Triangle began its population boom in the 1960’s with the advent of the Research Triangle Park (RTP), a sprawling development of business and research campuses between Raleigh and Durham. As people moved in they were impressed with the low tax rates, climate, educational opportunities, and lack of traffic congestion. Many appreciated the conveniences of living in a suburban environment and stayed.

401_cl_rouge_west
As congestion worsened ideas for an economical rail transit system evolved. This system never had much support, however, because planners approached the system completely backwards. They devised a system that would cheaply hit downtown areas, NCSU, RTP, and other minor stops using undeveloped, existing rail corridors. The problem is that they forgot to ask citizens what they want. Most felt the proposed system had novelty value, but wasn’t a viable transit alternative to using their car.

The viability of new transit options depends on how they serve car-loving citizens, not how they change car-loving citizens. It is important, though, that we not forget why people moved here and what kinds of people are attracted to this area. In order for Triangle residents to embrace new transit methods as an adjunct or a replacement to their cars, several conditions must be equal to or superior to the automobile experience.

Safety
The new transit options must be safer than driving a car. Cars are extremely dangerous, so this is an easy parameter to satisfy. In fact, out of 5.2 million drivers statewide, there are approximately 275,000 annual vehicle crashes (753 per day). Every year in North Carolina there are approximately 1,500 traffic deaths (4 per day). So, just over 5% of North Carolina drivers have an accident each year and 0.5% of them will die in those crashes.

Not only must the drivers be safe from collisions, they must be safe from their fellow man. Carjackings are a relatively new challenge to drivers, especially those stopped in congested conditions. According to the National Insurance Crime Bureau, a car is stolen in the U.S. every 25.5 seconds.

Crime rates with alternative mass transit modes are generally low, however there is a strong perception that they are not safe. Perhaps the lack of visible police in transit stations and intense media coverage of crime events contribute to citizen’s association of mass transit and crime.

Travel Time
Many drivers are used to driving cars at speeds of up to 75 miles per hour. Drivers make frequent stops, though, so the commuter’s average speed is usually only somewhere between 20 and 30mph. Many mass transit alternatives offer moderate speeds with few stops, so the average speed is more than the commuter perceives. A transit method that travels just as fast as cars with few stops, in clear view of congested drivers, would be a desirable alternative to the car.

Efficiency
High occupancy transit vehicles (HOTVs) such as buses and trains have the problem of headway, the time between vehicle stops. At many bus and train stops, it is not uncommon to find 15 to 30 minute wait times for a vehicle which holds somewhere between 40 and 400 people. Over the course of an entire day, the total transit load in an HOTV line falls well short of normally flowing highways full of cars. Additionally people tend to reject long platform times as they feel they are wasting time, are not safe, or are uncomfortable because of the climate (wind, rain, cold, etc).

A viable alternative to a car must be as efficient and comfortable as a car to be considered by drivers. Transit alternatives involving shared transport vehicles usually involve a fixed routing system on a fixed delivery schedule. In order for commuters to consider a transit alternative, it must be conveniently accessed and reliable. Bus and train stops are generally accessed by those within a 1/2mile radius of the transit stop. If commuters have to drive their car to access the transit vehicle, they will likely opt to complete their commute in the car instead. Even worse, if one must use three modes of transit, they will certainly opt for staying in their car.

Cost
A transit alternative must also be perceived to be cheaper for the commuter than driving a car. AAA estimates that car costs are 50-cents per mile, or $7,500 per year for a 15,000-mile per year driver. Transit proponents need to remind people that drivers spend more than $20 per day to own and operate their cars, and present an alternative that only costs $10 to $15 per day.

Privacy
Cars offer commuters privacy unmatched by current mass transit options. When faced with the prospect of sitting next to a sneezing stranger in a HOTV versus dictating their own experience in a car, they’ll almost always opt for the privacy of a car. This is an important factor to many people, but it often ignored by transit “experts”.

Flexibility
Cars offer the commuter much flexibility. While people generally follow patterns, they highly value the ability to adapt to pattern changes. Car commuting affords one the chance to stop by the cleaners, stop by the grocery store, leave work early to care for a sick child, and transport large quantities. Mass transit alternatives that work on a fixed schedule and pathway have difficulty matching the flexibility of a car.

Popular Destinations
People know where they want to go, and a transit system must include these destinations. A transit system that does not include the RDU airport, Crabtree Valley Mall, Streets at Southpoint Mall, and the RBC Center/Carter-Finley stadium is not centered on people. Rather, it expects people to center themselves on the system, which will not happen to a worthwhile degree. In order for a transit system to work anywhere, it has to move people where they want to go.

* * *

Car travel is immensely popular, and few alternatives have been accepted. Airplanes feature an enormous speed advantage, but sacrifice privacy, accessibility, and convenience. Passenger trains offer great convenience to the traveler wishing to complete much work on the train, however they do not offer a speed and privacy advantage to cars. They have limited access points and lengthy travel times so Amtrak, for example, is an unpopular option for Americans. We need a local transit option that is faster and safer than a car with similar costs, privacy, and comfort. It has to offer reasonable access, efficiency, and dependability. In short, the alternative that will draw people out of their cars has not been invented yet.

Skytranstop
One idea that seems like a viable concept is an elevated Personal Rail Transit (PRT). Imagine walking up to ½ a mile to a lightweight transit terminal and getting into a personal transit pod. The pod recognizes your wireless key fob (similar to Toyota’s SmartKey) and asks for your destination. You announce “Airport” and through voice recognition, the system recognizes your account, debits your account based on the distance of the trip, moves your pod 60-90mph to RDU. The system handles routing along the rail lines, gives an ETA, and bypasses each station along the way.

There are several interesting PRT concepts such as SkyTran, Futrex’s Monobeam, HighRoad, and Skyloop, however no working prototype for the model above actually exists. A PRT concept introduces some possibilities never seen before with HOTV systems. For instance, most HOTV systems are exorbitantly expensive because they rely on huge land acquisitions that cut objectionable swaths through existing developments. They are thus rejected by neighborhoods and result in half-hearted systems (like Atlanta’s MARTA) which don’t fix the area’s congestion problems, but still cost a fortune. HOTV track segments are custom fabricated on-site, driving up construction costs considerably. One of the biggest expenses with a HOTV systems is the construction of elaborate, ADA-compliant terminals.

Highroad
One problem with adapting current HOTV mass transit models to our region is our lack of population centers and central destinations. RTP office buildings are the primary destination of congested car commuters, however a HOTV only delivers masses of riders to a central point in the sprawling park. A PRT system can deliver these workers more accurately to RTP destinations. In fact, the system could be privately subsidized and secured. For instance, Glaxo could build a private spur from the line which is only accessible by a user password or passkey in the pod. Glaxo could either deny uncleared visitors or allow them in, carefully monitoring them as they exit the pod.

One of the most famous American HOTV systems is probably Disney World’s monorail system. It’s sexy and safe, however not even Disney was able to make the numbers work for monorail expansion when they opened the Animal Kingdom park! Perhaps involving prefabricated construction concepts to transit could drastically reduce construction costs. Most of us had HO train sets when we were little. Those sets contained fewer than 10 standardized pieces and we made them work. Similarly standardized pieces could be made under controlled conditions, transported to the construction site, and set into place at a fraction of the cost of building a traditional rail system.

Cincyprt
Another way to reduce costs is to indirectly address the ADA standards of the transit stations. A very, very small percentage of Americans are handicapped to the point they cannot use stairs, so instead of building expensive terminals, offer a door to door limousine service for handicapped people. This would be far cheaper and serve the handicapped better than it would to create a fixed transit system that caters to their needs.

The SkyTran system is a concept that addresses a many transit problems. The system features lightweight 2-person pods which, using MAG-LEV technology, could be strung along most current roadways replacing brown telephone poles. Its bypass-styled terminals can be dropped literally anywhere in the system, so as demand changes occur, the stops can change, too. The system is so lightweight that it could be run into existing buildings to create some ADA-compliant transit stops, too.

As demands change, the system can call empty pods to migrate and answer demand swells. Should a pod be unsuitably damaged or defaced, a send-to-service button could let the next person on the platform send the pod on its way to the shop. Each pod could contain hidden cameras to monitor rider activities. Should a single rider or pair of riders appear to be breaking system rules, security could send to pod to the nearest station and dump the riders off where police could be waiting.

Skytran_seattle2_web
The SkyTran system claims to drastically reduce costs by accommodating only 2 people at a time. The reduced weight of the pods reduces the superstructure requirements by 99%, drastically changing the construction and economic model. This is totally acceptable, because most commuters are single drivers. No transit system should chiefly aim to serve people transporting large loads of goods or children! We want these commuter groups in cars while we remove the single driver from congestion.

The SkyTran company’s claims of being able to fabricate a system for $1 million per mile are outrageous. We all know how cost estimates run, especially from the conceptual point of development. To put this number in perspective, though, the last TTA proposals estimated costs running about $23 million per mile. Charlotte’s proposed light rail (high tech streetcars) system is now up to $45 million per mile. The Las Vegas Monorail system costs anywhere from $87 million to $150 million per mile (there is a big debate over the actual numbers). Even if SkyTran is off by several million per mile, it is conceivable that the same amount of money it would take to build TTA’s 35-mile proposal could be converted to a 200-mile PRT system that includes more than twice as many Triangle destinations

The News & Observer has an interactive map showing anticipated growth patterns. From this map we can deduct that an ideal system for Raleigh includes several key population center/destinations:

  • Downtown Raleigh
  • Triangle Town Center
  • Crabtree Valley Mall
  • North Hills
  • N.C. State University
  • RBC Center/Carter-Finley Stadium
  • Downtown Cary
  • RDU Airport
  • Brier Creek
  • Downtown Durham
  • Streets at Southpoint Mall
  • Koka Booth Amphitheater
  • Alltel Pavilion

Additionally the Raleigh Master plan shows future job centers in these areas:

  • RTP
  • Downtown Raleigh
  • Highwoods
  • McGregor Park
  • White Oak Crossings (Garner)
  • Capital Blvd/540
  • Knightdale
  • South Raleigh along S. Saunders Street, OTB

Would a system that costs riders 25 cents per mile (half the rate of a car) that serves these areas be enticing? Here is a coverage map which shows a system that would be 181 miles long and serve all of the areas mentioned. The CAT bus system could then be reconfigured to compliment the needs within the PRT’s gaps, rather than canvassing the entire city.

Ral_prtmap_1

Whether it’s environmental impacts, safety impacts, esthetic impacts, costs, or efficiency impacts, every transportation concept has its weaknesses. The PRT concept is not perfect, but is one to consider for matching the needs of our region. Unfortunately the concept is only that. No working models exist, so the concept needs progress.

Congestionatlanta
We need to rethink transportation outside of the box. We need something that serves our needs well and ignores whether or not we are “keeping up” with larger cities’ outdated concepts. We need zealous engineers and engineering students to put all of their energy into new transit concepts, not to develop a better NASCAR car or a remote controlled SUV for the Pentagon. We need greatness.

Cars have done an outstanding job of transporting Americans with flexibility, privacy, and efficiency for almost a century.  Unfortunately the concepts of transit have been stuck in the mud for decades. There is an old saying,”If you keep doing what you’ve done, you’ll keep getting what you’ve been getting.” The introduction of a limited-access HOTV system would not prevent us from “becoming Atlanta”. It would in fact, be exactly Atlanta. Raleigh should strive to be the envy of America’s secondary cities, not the mirror of them. We can be great, but do we have the guts to be?

  • Kathleen

    Mass transit is the only option. Downtown Raleigh, with all the high rises, existing/new/proposed, has completely overlooked parking for the commuters. Parking will become a hassle & an expense ($400-1,000/month for a parking space).
    Initial locations-Convention Center, Triangle, North Hills, Crabtree, Cary Towne Center, RTP, the Arena & Walnut Creek. All of which, with the exception of the Convention Center, could double as Park & Ride locations, and TTA destinations.
    I have commuted on the train/subway, Metro & Bart, and look forward to mass transit coming to the Raleigh area sooner rather than later.

  • Kathleen

    Mass transit is the only option. Downtown Raleigh, with all the high rises, existing/new/proposed, has completely overlooked parking for the commuters. Parking will become a hassle & an expense ($400-1,000/month for a parking space).
    Initial locations-Convention Center, Triangle, North Hills, Crabtree, Cary Towne Center, RTP, the Arena & Walnut Creek. All of which, with the exception of the Convention Center, could double as Park & Ride locations, and TTA destinations.
    I have commuted on the train/subway, Metro & Bart, and look forward to mass transit coming to the Raleigh area sooner rather than later.

  • Matt K

    Mass transit development or not, the automobile is not going away anytime soon. Not in 20 years, not in 50 years. Oil supply or no oil, manufacturers will adapt to battery power, hydrogen, bio-diesel, or whatever takes over in coming years as alternative power sources are explored.
    I was looking at the Charlotte area’s transit plan and it looks pretty impressive. Whereas TTA had a scheme that only presented one route reaching limited areas (and it didn’t include the airport – which I think ought to be considered a primary destination), Charlotte has two lines extending out four directions from the city center, and it’s well-intergrated with their streetcar and bus system. I think now that the rail planning has been re-assigned from TTA to a multi-jurisdictional planning board, they may be able to better determine areas best served by future rail and come up with a route plan that’s fiscally responsible and efficient for the area.
    Kathleen brings up an exceptional point about parking. It may not be right now, but there will come a time when the cost of commuting makes mass transit a very appealing option. My sister lives in the Chicago area and commutes via train to the Loop daily. If she drove, she’d end up paying $200 a month in parking – on top of any fuel costs and tolls. Not to mention time spent sitting on the freeways. The big city density and congestion (and costs) aren’t here yet, but it’s coming – and when it hits, people will be screaming for alternatives.

  • Matt K

    Mass transit development or not, the automobile is not going away anytime soon. Not in 20 years, not in 50 years. Oil supply or no oil, manufacturers will adapt to battery power, hydrogen, bio-diesel, or whatever takes over in coming years as alternative power sources are explored.
    I was looking at the Charlotte area’s transit plan and it looks pretty impressive. Whereas TTA had a scheme that only presented one route reaching limited areas (and it didn’t include the airport – which I think ought to be considered a primary destination), Charlotte has two lines extending out four directions from the city center, and it’s well-intergrated with their streetcar and bus system. I think now that the rail planning has been re-assigned from TTA to a multi-jurisdictional planning board, they may be able to better determine areas best served by future rail and come up with a route plan that’s fiscally responsible and efficient for the area.
    Kathleen brings up an exceptional point about parking. It may not be right now, but there will come a time when the cost of commuting makes mass transit a very appealing option. My sister lives in the Chicago area and commutes via train to the Loop daily. If she drove, she’d end up paying $200 a month in parking – on top of any fuel costs and tolls. Not to mention time spent sitting on the freeways. The big city density and congestion (and costs) aren’t here yet, but it’s coming – and when it hits, people will be screaming for alternatives.

  • Jeff S

    Ernest, I do realize that personal transportation is just the tip of the oil iceberg. We live in a society built around cheap oil, and that’s precisely what bothers me. Take our food supply for one… we’ve become depending on foodstuffs that are shipped and trucked all over the world before landing at the Harris Teeter or McDonalds. Everything in Walmart or Target was shipped and trucked great distances for your convenience.
    When the oil runs out, how convenient the commute is will be the least of everyone’s problems.
    Regarding “not having a choice”… well, we all chose to live in a city without mass transit, and we choose not to carpool, and we choose to live 2 hours away from inlaws, and enjoy our out-of-season produce shipped from Chile, and enjoy giving gifts from Hong Kong to all our relatives at Christmas. Everything is a choice.

  • Jeff S

    Ernest, I do realize that personal transportation is just the tip of the oil iceberg. We live in a society built around cheap oil, and that’s precisely what bothers me. Take our food supply for one… we’ve become depending on foodstuffs that are shipped and trucked all over the world before landing at the Harris Teeter or McDonalds. Everything in Walmart or Target was shipped and trucked great distances for your convenience.
    When the oil runs out, how convenient the commute is will be the least of everyone’s problems.
    Regarding “not having a choice”… well, we all chose to live in a city without mass transit, and we choose not to carpool, and we choose to live 2 hours away from inlaws, and enjoy our out-of-season produce shipped from Chile, and enjoy giving gifts from Hong Kong to all our relatives at Christmas. Everything is a choice.

  • http://www.PermissionToSuck.com/ Bruce DeBoer
  • http://www.PermissionToSuck.com Bruce DeBoer
  • http://www.raleighmsa.com/ Ernest Pecounis

    Jeff, that was well said. It is all about choice and I cannot disagree with that. However, the key word is “progress” and we will always choose to give up a few amenities/privileges in order to move forward. As much as I hate it, we are dependent on more than just oil and automobiles. As our society grows, so will the dependency and the need to compromise. I don’t mean that people will have to become slaves, but can’t how will a society of hundreds of millions of people will be managed? How will we meet the challenges of the ever-increasing population? Through global wars and widespread disease? Certainly not through living 6 feet apart from each other. Somewhere down the road more challenges will be presented.
    Our choices and actions affect others, without a doubt. When McDonalds becomes the norm for so many people, food quality declines and the costs of providing health care increases. Someone’s choice to be overweight affects the way the entire health care system works, but none of us can tell these people how much to eat, let alone where and what. Through education people can learn how our society can be managed without having to make tremendous sacrifices. 100 years ago the average person was happy to have a turkey on their table during Christmas. Kids were happy with just a little toy. Today, we go out there on a Black Friday and turn our personal finances upside down, just so we can say we have a better digital camera, or a new lawnmower. Obviously, most people lack self-control.
    Back to the topic, a decent mass transit system will eventually develop, whether we like it, or not. Many of those who oppose TTA’s plan have a good reason for doing so, but they only delay the inevitable. On the other hand, a “build it and they will come” approach isn’t good either. Yes, there are developers who follow the news on our envisioned rail system and they are ready to jump with both feet into some serious development if that vision gets the green light, but we need to have already established some density. Asking the federal government to pay 61% for the rail is totally insane, especially when that money can provide some traffic congestion relief to other cities, with far worse problems than ours. We need to make a very strong case before we can hope to get federal funds.
    Could Raleigh become a model for good public transit? Sure it can. Given the existing infrastructure, it will be a miracle if we pull this, thus we’ll be the role model for many cities that face similar challenges. Can we provide enough good options to ensure that people will use their cars much less? I am afraid the answer is No.
    ____________________________
    My sincere apologies for yet-another very long post. I think y’all have done a great job expressing ideas and concerns, which I find inspiring.

  • http://www.raleighmsa.com Ernest Pecounis

    Jeff, that was well said. It is all about choice and I cannot disagree with that. However, the key word is “progress” and we will always choose to give up a few amenities/privileges in order to move forward. As much as I hate it, we are dependent on more than just oil and automobiles. As our society grows, so will the dependency and the need to compromise. I don’t mean that people will have to become slaves, but can’t how will a society of hundreds of millions of people will be managed? How will we meet the challenges of the ever-increasing population? Through global wars and widespread disease? Certainly not through living 6 feet apart from each other. Somewhere down the road more challenges will be presented.
    Our choices and actions affect others, without a doubt. When McDonalds becomes the norm for so many people, food quality declines and the costs of providing health care increases. Someone’s choice to be overweight affects the way the entire health care system works, but none of us can tell these people how much to eat, let alone where and what. Through education people can learn how our society can be managed without having to make tremendous sacrifices. 100 years ago the average person was happy to have a turkey on their table during Christmas. Kids were happy with just a little toy. Today, we go out there on a Black Friday and turn our personal finances upside down, just so we can say we have a better digital camera, or a new lawnmower. Obviously, most people lack self-control.
    Back to the topic, a decent mass transit system will eventually develop, whether we like it, or not. Many of those who oppose TTA’s plan have a good reason for doing so, but they only delay the inevitable. On the other hand, a “build it and they will come” approach isn’t good either. Yes, there are developers who follow the news on our envisioned rail system and they are ready to jump with both feet into some serious development if that vision gets the green light, but we need to have already established some density. Asking the federal government to pay 61% for the rail is totally insane, especially when that money can provide some traffic congestion relief to other cities, with far worse problems than ours. We need to make a very strong case before we can hope to get federal funds.
    Could Raleigh become a model for good public transit? Sure it can. Given the existing infrastructure, it will be a miracle if we pull this, thus we’ll be the role model for many cities that face similar challenges. Can we provide enough good options to ensure that people will use their cars much less? I am afraid the answer is No.
    ____________________________
    My sincere apologies for yet-another very long post. I think y’all have done a great job expressing ideas and concerns, which I find inspiring.

  • Flatsilver

    I would like to help out in the fight, if there is one. We need this up and running. Its just something this area needs to connect the triangle. There is no other options at this time. And 10-20.00 once a week is worth it for exploring. This is the future too. This area is growing so fast!!

  • Flatsilver

    I would like to help out in the fight, if there is one. We need this up and running. Its just something this area needs to connect the triangle. There is no other options at this time. And 10-20.00 once a week is worth it for exploring. This is the future too. This area is growing so fast!!

  • DB

    I was completely blown away by the Sky Tran idea. More personal and runs on electricity. Ingenius. Problem with actually getting something like that is that Raleigh still has a few too many good ol’ boys making decisions, who are afraid of changing the status quo. Afraid of trying something new.
    The proposed TTA line had quite a few flaws. There’s almost no denying that. The destinations it ignored were too many to be actually used by many people. Considering the cost of building the proposed light rail was last estimated at I believe over 7 times the originally estimated cost, the plan just had to be scrapped.
    When I consider the factors that face the Triangle, many of which have already been stated by comments here, truly the Sky Tran system seems to make more sense than the alternative mass transit systems, much less the alternative of doing nothing.

  • DB

    I was completely blown away by the Sky Tran idea. More personal and runs on electricity. Ingenius. Problem with actually getting something like that is that Raleigh still has a few too many good ol’ boys making decisions, who are afraid of changing the status quo. Afraid of trying something new.
    The proposed TTA line had quite a few flaws. There’s almost no denying that. The destinations it ignored were too many to be actually used by many people. Considering the cost of building the proposed light rail was last estimated at I believe over 7 times the originally estimated cost, the plan just had to be scrapped.
    When I consider the factors that face the Triangle, many of which have already been stated by comments here, truly the Sky Tran system seems to make more sense than the alternative mass transit systems, much less the alternative of doing nothing.

  • http://profile.typekey.com/baconm/ Michael Bacon

    Just got forwarded this link by a friend. A few comments here:
    1. First off, as a Durhamite, I suppose it’s not terribly surprising given the name of the blog, but that’s a terribly Raleigh-centric list of destinations. If you only served those, the system would be useless to Durhamites. You’d also need to incorporate Duke University/Medical Center, Durham Regional Hospital and the surrounding North Duke Mall area, NC Central University, the South Square area, as well as several stops in Chapel Hill.
    2. Regional nitpicks aside, there’s a pretty big gap between people’s perceptions of why the train failed to get federal funding and the actual obstacles that blocked it. Most of the comments I’ve seen on it imply that it wouldn’t have served enough people, and was just implicitly too expensive. The reality is that it would have been very possible to build a very functional, popular system for half of what the final price tag was but for some ugly realities and bad luck that came into play. Namely:
    - Freight company intransigence/NCRR spinelessness. Most of the corridor that the system would have run on was owned by the NC Railroad Corp., or NCRR, a state agency. In its charter, it is required to make consessios for passenger rail. However, in negotiating the leases, NCRR caved to pressure from the freight carriers to preserve their corridor. Now, I live less than a half mile from the main tracks, and I can tell you no more than three or four freight trains go through a day, at absolute most. There was plenty of time for them to put their trains through, and share the same tracks with the system, provided they agreed not to run freight trains at rush hour. However, because that would mean giving up some rights to that track in perpetuity, they screamed. NCRR’s board is mostly stacked with people friendly to the freight firms, so they made TTA go a ridiculous buffer distance out (allegedly for safety, but I think to preserve the right to build a second set of freight-only tracks) and build two new passenger-only tracks. That sent the cost through the roof.
    - Certain Duke administrators who aggressively obstructed a station near the Hospital. Having Duke Hospital, the epicenter of the Triangle’s largest private employer, on the system would have been huge for TTA’s ridership numbers. However, a certain executive Vice President did everything he could to keep a station far away from the hospital, and his demands and delays drove up the cost of the final stop on the line that it was finally dropped. This was a killer to TTA’s ridership tally.
    - Change in political environment. Minneapolis and Charlotte started on the same track as the Triangle, and with not much better numbers got their systems approved, and they’ll be built now. The Triangle had a significantly bigger system, but with similar cost/rider numbers in the end. (Lower, but it could have been made up.) Because it took longer to design, by the time it was ready to get support from the feds, Washington was significantly less friendly to mass transit projects than it had been previously. (GOP in power, Senators Dole and Burr, Iraq war, etc.) Sometimes, timing is everything.
    3. One thing I really disagree with TTA on is how they marketed the system. They essentially tried to sell this thing as The Solution for public transit in the Triangle. The reality, which I’ve been repeating in as many public forums as I could, is that the rail system would make a great backbone of a regional solution, but that in order to work right, it desperately needed greatly increased bus service to help feed it, and that wasn’t included in the cost. If you lived, say, two miles away from the line, but near a reasonably major road, you should have been able to take a bus running every 10 minutes or less at rush hour to the nearest station, then wait less than 7.5 minutes for the train and take it to IBM’s campus, or NC State, or whatever. But that would involve a big increase in funding for CAT and DATA, and no one ever talked about that. (A Durham County Commissioner told me when I tried to sell her on this, “You ought to look at that train proposal!” So even the elected officials were under this impression.)
    4. The “it wouldn’t go to the airport!” argument is the most bogus complaint ever aired. Through much experience, direct connections to airport terminals in other cities are some of the most expensive, underused stops. The TTA system would have gotten you as close as you get with one of the Park and Ride lots, and then you could have taken a five minute shuttle to the terminal, just like a P&R; lot. Look, even in Paris, where EVERYONE takes the metro, you have to take a shuttle from the airport stop.
    5. In response to a commenter, I can’t say what the chances are, but TTA leaders definitely do not think this thing is dead. It’s dead for this round of funding, but there are other options. You very likely won’t hear anything public until they think they’ve got a decent shot at one of them, but they’re actively working on finding other sources of funding, and definitely sound optimistic when you talk to them.
    6. As to Sky Tran, forgive me for being cynical, but yeah, right! I got really dubious when the interface was “voice recognition,” which ties with the touchscreen as the most idiotic and unnecessary user interface currently in widespread use. (Just what the hell is so hard about pressing a button?!?!?) Its pushers say they can build it for a lower cost per mile, but what’s the bandwidth of that mile? Will there not be a massive demand for cars at 5 PM at an RTP stop? How do you avoid conjestion going through the Morrisville/Cary bottleneck? Or do you string secondary lines that go through the middle of nowhere to the north or south? And how, precisely, will the energy efficiency be better than an automobile if you’re having to shuttle empty cars all over the place to meet demand? I’ll lay down a figure right now. In actual implimentation costs, if a moderately usable system could be built Triangle-wide and operated for 10 years at less than $8 billion, I’m a monkey’s uncle. And I still say that system would suck.

  • http://profile.typekey.com/baconm/ Michael Bacon

    Just got forwarded this link by a friend. A few comments here:
    1. First off, as a Durhamite, I suppose it’s not terribly surprising given the name of the blog, but that’s a terribly Raleigh-centric list of destinations. If you only served those, the system would be useless to Durhamites. You’d also need to incorporate Duke University/Medical Center, Durham Regional Hospital and the surrounding North Duke Mall area, NC Central University, the South Square area, as well as several stops in Chapel Hill.
    2. Regional nitpicks aside, there’s a pretty big gap between people’s perceptions of why the train failed to get federal funding and the actual obstacles that blocked it. Most of the comments I’ve seen on it imply that it wouldn’t have served enough people, and was just implicitly too expensive. The reality is that it would have been very possible to build a very functional, popular system for half of what the final price tag was but for some ugly realities and bad luck that came into play. Namely:
    - Freight company intransigence/NCRR spinelessness. Most of the corridor that the system would have run on was owned by the NC Railroad Corp., or NCRR, a state agency. In its charter, it is required to make consessios for passenger rail. However, in negotiating the leases, NCRR caved to pressure from the freight carriers to preserve their corridor. Now, I live less than a half mile from the main tracks, and I can tell you no more than three or four freight trains go through a day, at absolute most. There was plenty of time for them to put their trains through, and share the same tracks with the system, provided they agreed not to run freight trains at rush hour. However, because that would mean giving up some rights to that track in perpetuity, they screamed. NCRR’s board is mostly stacked with people friendly to the freight firms, so they made TTA go a ridiculous buffer distance out (allegedly for safety, but I think to preserve the right to build a second set of freight-only tracks) and build two new passenger-only tracks. That sent the cost through the roof.
    - Certain Duke administrators who aggressively obstructed a station near the Hospital. Having Duke Hospital, the epicenter of the Triangle’s largest private employer, on the system would have been huge for TTA’s ridership numbers. However, a certain executive Vice President did everything he could to keep a station far away from the hospital, and his demands and delays drove up the cost of the final stop on the line that it was finally dropped. This was a killer to TTA’s ridership tally.
    - Change in political environment. Minneapolis and Charlotte started on the same track as the Triangle, and with not much better numbers got their systems approved, and they’ll be built now. The Triangle had a significantly bigger system, but with similar cost/rider numbers in the end. (Lower, but it could have been made up.) Because it took longer to design, by the time it was ready to get support from the feds, Washington was significantly less friendly to mass transit projects than it had been previously. (GOP in power, Senators Dole and Burr, Iraq war, etc.) Sometimes, timing is everything.
    3. One thing I really disagree with TTA on is how they marketed the system. They essentially tried to sell this thing as The Solution for public transit in the Triangle. The reality, which I’ve been repeating in as many public forums as I could, is that the rail system would make a great backbone of a regional solution, but that in order to work right, it desperately needed greatly increased bus service to help feed it, and that wasn’t included in the cost. If you lived, say, two miles away from the line, but near a reasonably major road, you should have been able to take a bus running every 10 minutes or less at rush hour to the nearest station, then wait less than 7.5 minutes for the train and take it to IBM’s campus, or NC State, or whatever. But that would involve a big increase in funding for CAT and DATA, and no one ever talked about that. (A Durham County Commissioner told me when I tried to sell her on this, “You ought to look at that train proposal!” So even the elected officials were under this impression.)
    4. The “it wouldn’t go to the airport!” argument is the most bogus complaint ever aired. Through much experience, direct connections to airport terminals in other cities are some of the most expensive, underused stops. The TTA system would have gotten you as close as you get with one of the Park and Ride lots, and then you could have taken a five minute shuttle to the terminal, just like a P&R lot. Look, even in Paris, where EVERYONE takes the metro, you have to take a shuttle from the airport stop.
    5. In response to a commenter, I can’t say what the chances are, but TTA leaders definitely do not think this thing is dead. It’s dead for this round of funding, but there are other options. You very likely won’t hear anything public until they think they’ve got a decent shot at one of them, but they’re actively working on finding other sources of funding, and definitely sound optimistic when you talk to them.
    6. As to Sky Tran, forgive me for being cynical, but yeah, right! I got really dubious when the interface was “voice recognition,” which ties with the touchscreen as the most idiotic and unnecessary user interface currently in widespread use. (Just what the hell is so hard about pressing a button?!?!?) Its pushers say they can build it for a lower cost per mile, but what’s the bandwidth of that mile? Will there not be a massive demand for cars at 5 PM at an RTP stop? How do you avoid conjestion going through the Morrisville/Cary bottleneck? Or do you string secondary lines that go through the middle of nowhere to the north or south? And how, precisely, will the energy efficiency be better than an automobile if you’re having to shuttle empty cars all over the place to meet demand? I’ll lay down a figure right now. In actual implimentation costs, if a moderately usable system could be built Triangle-wide and operated for 10 years at less than $8 billion, I’m a monkey’s uncle. And I still say that system would suck.

  • Matt K

    Thank you for that insight, Michael Bacon… lots of interesting info there – and answers to lingering questions that I had wondered but never mentioned publicly. I can understand some of the cost savings associated with using the existing freight rail lines from Raleigh through Cary and on to Durham – but is this really the route that serves commuters and reaches people who would use the trains the most? (I’d also been wondering about conflicts with freight trains.)
    As far as the RDU tie-in, I think the airport really needs to be considered as a link on the system. Now, I’m not saying I expect a train to drop me off directly at Terminal A or C at RDU – but if I could name a single instance where I’d be more than happy to leave my car at home and take fast, easy public transportation, a train to the airport would be a way I’d love to go. Bus to the neighborhood train stop, train to RDU – anywhere at RDU – and then whatever available shuttle or service there is to get me to a terminal.
    Regarding the situation with Duke hospital, that’s sad to hear. If there was anyone who could throw some heavy weight in favor of rail transit and help move it forward, it’s the area’s largest employers. That’s probably something the new rail committee ought to look into getting support and feedback from if they want to get any sort of viable transit plan put together.

  • Matt K

    Thank you for that insight, Michael Bacon… lots of interesting info there – and answers to lingering questions that I had wondered but never mentioned publicly. I can understand some of the cost savings associated with using the existing freight rail lines from Raleigh through Cary and on to Durham – but is this really the route that serves commuters and reaches people who would use the trains the most? (I’d also been wondering about conflicts with freight trains.)
    As far as the RDU tie-in, I think the airport really needs to be considered as a link on the system. Now, I’m not saying I expect a train to drop me off directly at Terminal A or C at RDU – but if I could name a single instance where I’d be more than happy to leave my car at home and take fast, easy public transportation, a train to the airport would be a way I’d love to go. Bus to the neighborhood train stop, train to RDU – anywhere at RDU – and then whatever available shuttle or service there is to get me to a terminal.
    Regarding the situation with Duke hospital, that’s sad to hear. If there was anyone who could throw some heavy weight in favor of rail transit and help move it forward, it’s the area’s largest employers. That’s probably something the new rail committee ought to look into getting support and feedback from if they want to get any sort of viable transit plan put together.

  • J. Travis Horton

    Michael, your first five points are right on and well taken. I really appreciate a recap of the whole TTA let down. I was aware of some of your points and learned some new things. Thanks.
    Now for the however…
    Your last point lost the tone of the previous five and turned into an emotional rant badmouthing SkyTran. What’s up with that? Where does that 8 billion dollar figure come from?
    SkyTran, along with other PRT (personal rapid transit) systems don’t exist yet. SkyTran is a conceptualization that possibly could be built, and who knows what interface would work best? As far as congestion is concerned, the thing is linier. The cars move fast and close together. The PRT cars are made out of carbon fiber, run 25 feet off the ground and are computer controlled at 60 MPH. Here is where we can joke about Window’s blue screen of death!
    TTA’s solution, no doubt, will be a political one utilizing old technology. NCRR and Duke will come around and those big ole “self-propelled, bi-directional, diesel rail cars” will be shuttling back and forth, hopefully from Burlington to Goldsboro, Oxford to Southern Pines.
    A big chunk of money will be spent.
    What I would like to see is some of that money going to investigate and prototype a 21st century PRT feeder system for the main line. Mass transit is ripe for innovation. Gosh, maybe there will even be a dock for my Ipod!

  • J. Travis Horton

    Michael, your first five points are right on and well taken. I really appreciate a recap of the whole TTA let down. I was aware of some of your points and learned some new things. Thanks.
    Now for the however…
    Your last point lost the tone of the previous five and turned into an emotional rant badmouthing SkyTran. What’s up with that? Where does that 8 billion dollar figure come from?
    SkyTran, along with other PRT (personal rapid transit) systems don’t exist yet. SkyTran is a conceptualization that possibly could be built, and who knows what interface would work best? As far as congestion is concerned, the thing is linier. The cars move fast and close together. The PRT cars are made out of carbon fiber, run 25 feet off the ground and are computer controlled at 60 MPH. Here is where we can joke about Window’s blue screen of death!
    TTA’s solution, no doubt, will be a political one utilizing old technology. NCRR and Duke will come around and those big ole “self-propelled, bi-directional, diesel rail cars” will be shuttling back and forth, hopefully from Burlington to Goldsboro, Oxford to Southern Pines.
    A big chunk of money will be spent.
    What I would like to see is some of that money going to investigate and prototype a 21st century PRT feeder system for the main line. Mass transit is ripe for innovation. Gosh, maybe there will even be a dock for my Ipod!

  • Dana

    Thanks for all of the comments. The topic of transit is certainly one that draws people’s interest and we have some big decisions ahead of us.
    The points of my article seem to have missed some readers. Most agree that we don’t want to become just like Atlanta down the road. However the TTA plan is almost a carbon copy of what Atlanta elected to build in the early 1970′s.
    After 25 years of operation, the MARTA system has only been allowed to grow by, what, 5-10% of the original plan because neighborhoods fought off plans for expansion. What they have is a system that goes to the airport, downtown, key malls, and a very few population centers. They HAVE NOT seen high-density cluster growth around their stations like so many predict here.
    MARTA is a great analogy because Atlanta and Raleigh have no geographic or political borders, have the same climate, and have nearly the same history of development density.
    Like Atlanta, the TTA plan would run rail transit through undeveloped, industrial areas. Most assuredly when our system is 25 years old, we, too, will be begging citizens to ride the rail. We’ll want to have expanded the system, but neighborhoods and businesses will have fought against the destruction of a polarizing swath through existing developments. We’ll be left with a line that offers an alternative to new developments only and ignores the majority of citizens who live in older developments. We need to cut through existing areas with little impact.
    The TTA’s original concept of running diesel choo-choos along existing rail routes was a great chance to do this thing on the cheap, but costs grew ten-fold. The whole thing was proposed WITHOUT consulting the owners of those rail lines. Rail advocates used terms like “spineless” and “selfish” to describe NCRR. Let’s put ourselves in their shoes, however.
    Imagine if a cash-strapped Parks & Recreation department proposed a series of outdoor basketball leagues. The plan would allow all children in the neighborhood to participate, and the events will all happen in YOUR DRIVEWAY.
    During practices and games you will not be allowed to come or go from your house (which you only do about a half of a dozen times a day, right?). When you object to the proposal that the neighborhood only modestly supports, you are called all kinds of names. You and your selfishness are going to make the city pave their own basketball court instead of using your driveway.
    Let’s look at some numbers. The western portion of I-540 is estimated to cost about $351.4 million for 12.4 mile stretch ($28 million/mile). I-540 near Creedmoor Road averages about 70,000 cars per day.
    http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/483100.html (last section)
    http://tinyurl.com/ymcth7 (.pdf with traffic #s)
    Let’s say that the new expressway will service about 60,000 people per day (traffic will be lighter, but each car will have slightly more than one person). That’s a cost of $5,857 per day -person traveled.
    TTA anticipates 14,000 riders per day on their 28-mile, $808 million system ($29 million/mile). That’s a cost of $57,714 per day-person traveled.
    http://www.ridetta.org/Regional_Rail/Overview/projectOverview.html (they only claim 10,285 riders by 2025. 14K came from an article in the Independent this past summer)
    http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2005/10/10/daily29.html
    So, the TTA’s plan costs TEN TIMES the amount to move one person. That’s an enormous difference. Yes, there are other factors such as oil, pollution, development opportunities, commute times, etc. However I don’t see too many people juggling the decision between buying a $20K Honda vs. a $200K Ferrari.
    http://www.forbes.com/2002/03/04/0304feat_7.html
    The point is that a transit option other than the good-ol’ highway needs to ATTRACT more than 14,000 people a day. It needs to attract more like 70,000 people a day.
    I agree that roads and developmental patterns around them are boring. We need a better alternative than high-occupancy rail vehicles (which DO experience congestion problems during peak loads and DO run empty cars – think of suburb bound cars in the morning).
    The SkyTran is not the be-all, end-all solution. It is a concept that needs a lot of work, but at least is a starting point for something that is able to engage existing areas with minimal impact. Once people open their minds to a new concept, the concept improves. Isn’t that what rail proponents ask car-lovers to do?

  • Dana

    Thanks for all of the comments. The topic of transit is certainly one that draws people’s interest and we have some big decisions ahead of us.
    The points of my article seem to have missed some readers. Most agree that we don’t want to become just like Atlanta down the road. However the TTA plan is almost a carbon copy of what Atlanta elected to build in the early 1970′s.
    After 25 years of operation, the MARTA system has only been allowed to grow by, what, 5-10% of the original plan because neighborhoods fought off plans for expansion. What they have is a system that goes to the airport, downtown, key malls, and a very few population centers. They HAVE NOT seen high-density cluster growth around their stations like so many predict here.
    MARTA is a great analogy because Atlanta and Raleigh have no geographic or political borders, have the same climate, and have nearly the same history of development density.
    Like Atlanta, the TTA plan would run rail transit through undeveloped, industrial areas. Most assuredly when our system is 25 years old, we, too, will be begging citizens to ride the rail. We’ll want to have expanded the system, but neighborhoods and businesses will have fought against the destruction of a polarizing swath through existing developments. We’ll be left with a line that offers an alternative to new developments only and ignores the majority of citizens who live in older developments. We need to cut through existing areas with little impact.
    The TTA’s original concept of running diesel choo-choos along existing rail routes was a great chance to do this thing on the cheap, but costs grew ten-fold. The whole thing was proposed WITHOUT consulting the owners of those rail lines. Rail advocates used terms like “spineless” and “selfish” to describe NCRR. Let’s put ourselves in their shoes, however.
    Imagine if a cash-strapped Parks & Recreation department proposed a series of outdoor basketball leagues. The plan would allow all children in the neighborhood to participate, and the events will all happen in YOUR DRIVEWAY.
    During practices and games you will not be allowed to come or go from your house (which you only do about a half of a dozen times a day, right?). When you object to the proposal that the neighborhood only modestly supports, you are called all kinds of names. You and your selfishness are going to make the city pave their own basketball court instead of using your driveway.
    Let’s look at some numbers. The western portion of I-540 is estimated to cost about $351.4 million for 12.4 mile stretch ($28 million/mile). I-540 near Creedmoor Road averages about 70,000 cars per day.
    http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/483100.html (last section)
    http://tinyurl.com/ymcth7 (.pdf with traffic #s)
    Let’s say that the new expressway will service about 60,000 people per day (traffic will be lighter, but each car will have slightly more than one person). That’s a cost of $5,857 per day -person traveled.
    TTA anticipates 14,000 riders per day on their 28-mile, $808 million system ($29 million/mile). That’s a cost of $57,714 per day-person traveled.
    http://www.ridetta.org/Regional_Rail/Overview/projectOverview.html (they only claim 10,285 riders by 2025. 14K came from an article in the Independent this past summer)
    http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2005/10/10/daily29.html
    So, the TTA’s plan costs TEN TIMES the amount to move one person. That’s an enormous difference. Yes, there are other factors such as oil, pollution, development opportunities, commute times, etc. However I don’t see too many people juggling the decision between buying a $20K Honda vs. a $200K Ferrari.
    http://www.forbes.com/2002/03/04/0304feat_7.html
    The point is that a transit option other than the good-ol’ highway needs to ATTRACT more than 14,000 people a day. It needs to attract more like 70,000 people a day.
    I agree that roads and developmental patterns around them are boring. We need a better alternative than high-occupancy rail vehicles (which DO experience congestion problems during peak loads and DO run empty cars – think of suburb bound cars in the morning).
    The SkyTran is not the be-all, end-all solution. It is a concept that needs a lot of work, but at least is a starting point for something that is able to engage existing areas with minimal impact. Once people open their minds to a new concept, the concept improves. Isn’t that what rail proponents ask car-lovers to do?

  • ChiefJoJo

    Dana,
    I want to respond to a few things you wrote.
    “However the TTA plan is almost a carbon copy of what Atlanta elected to build in the early 1970′s.”
    Transit is all about land use. MARTA failed because they did not build Transit Oriented Development (TOD) around the stations outside of downtown. Instead they built massive parking decks (see the Buckhead station) so that people could DRIVE to the stops. WTF? Well, it was the 1970s, the peak of the era of the automobile. Oh, and ever since the federal govt freezed their federal funding in 1998, they have had to rethink how they do business (http://www.atlantaregional.com/cps/rde/xchg/).
    By contrast, in Charlotte or several other medium-sized areas around the US (Minneapolis, Portland, etc) the modern TOD is thriving as baby-boomers and 20s/30s young professionals are clamouring for more urban, walkable (healthy!) communities–exactly the kind we will see around TTA stops here in the Triangle if we just LET IT HAPPEN.
    “The western portion of I-540 is estimated to cost about $351.4 million for 12.4 mile stretch ($28 million/mile). I-540 near Creedmoor Road averages about 70,000 cars per day… TTA anticipates 14,000 riders per day on their 28-mile, $808 million system ($29 million/mile).”
    First, I can tell you for a 100 percent certainty that $351M is not correct (http://www.ncturnpike.org/projects/Western_Wake/). The number is more likely to be closer to $750M or even more (2008 dollars). So let’s increase your user cost to ~$12k per person/day for the new highway. Then, you must take into account that highway is going to be tolled, so there will be a real, every day user cost ($2-5) associated with that project, just like transit, so it’s not as rosy a pictuer as you paint it.
    To me the biggest difference to building transit versus roads is in the VERY long term… 30, 50 years away. Can we afford to continue to build freeways everywhere, only to see sprawling subdivisions, Wal-Marts, and Home Depots magically sprout up all round them? Why do the taxpayers have to shoulder the burden of a free land value hike overnight so big developers can build their stripmalls? What kind of future will we have in 30 years with the economic/land development model of “stay the course.” We’ll get Atlanta and LA gridlock and air pollution. I don’t want that and I don’t think the average citizen in this area wants that either. If they only could be educated that there is another choice…
    Conversely, think about the bang for the buck fixed rapid transit gives us as a community in the long term. We’ll have better land use in TOD around station areas, and in all areas of the region, as some of the ever-growing demand for homes will be captured by the greater densities allowed by TOD-zoning. That allows us to not have to extend more roads, schools, fire/police stations, sewer lines and other services further out into the now-rural areas. We will save money by the millions.
    Also, even as more dense communities sprout up over time along the transitway, system capacity can be added as easily as buying a few more rail cars and reducing headways (time bewteen transit vehicles ariving at the station), not building more lane-miles of roads that will simply be gobbled up by more development and cars in a few more years (see I-40, Capital Blvd, etc). Yes, when the time comes to meet increasing demand fueled by growth, would you rather pay a few million for several more rail vehicles, or hundreds of millions to widen the road?
    Imagine you are a recruiter for the Triangle. Think about the economic benefits of saying to ACME corporation looking to potentially relocate to your area “we can guarantee a 30 minute ride to work for your employees for the next 50 years.” Would you be able to say that to a company looking to relocate to RTP or downtown Raleigh in say 2030 under the “stay the course” model of today?
    What we need is a vision for the future. We can’t plan for tomorrow or even 2010. We must have a visionary goal for the next 30 to 50 years and beyond that will serve our growing needs and protect the resources we have and continue to make this a liveable place for us and the generations to follow.

  • ChiefJoJo

    Dana,
    I want to respond to a few things you wrote.
    “However the TTA plan is almost a carbon copy of what Atlanta elected to build in the early 1970′s.”
    Transit is all about land use. MARTA failed because they did not build Transit Oriented Development (TOD) around the stations outside of downtown. Instead they built massive parking decks (see the Buckhead station) so that people could DRIVE to the stops. WTF? Well, it was the 1970s, the peak of the era of the automobile. Oh, and ever since the federal govt freezed their federal funding in 1998, they have had to rethink how they do business (http://www.atlantaregional.com/cps/rde/xchg/).
    By contrast, in Charlotte or several other medium-sized areas around the US (Minneapolis, Portland, etc) the modern TOD is thriving as baby-boomers and 20s/30s young professionals are clamouring for more urban, walkable (healthy!) communities–exactly the kind we will see around TTA stops here in the Triangle if we just LET IT HAPPEN.
    “The western portion of I-540 is estimated to cost about $351.4 million for 12.4 mile stretch ($28 million/mile). I-540 near Creedmoor Road averages about 70,000 cars per day… TTA anticipates 14,000 riders per day on their 28-mile, $808 million system ($29 million/mile).”
    First, I can tell you for a 100 percent certainty that $351M is not correct (http://www.ncturnpike.org/projects/Western_Wake/). The number is more likely to be closer to $750M or even more (2008 dollars). So let’s increase your user cost to ~$12k per person/day for the new highway. Then, you must take into account that highway is going to be tolled, so there will be a real, every day user cost ($2-5) associated with that project, just like transit, so it’s not as rosy a pictuer as you paint it.
    To me the biggest difference to building transit versus roads is in the VERY long term… 30, 50 years away. Can we afford to continue to build freeways everywhere, only to see sprawling subdivisions, Wal-Marts, and Home Depots magically sprout up all round them? Why do the taxpayers have to shoulder the burden of a free land value hike overnight so big developers can build their stripmalls? What kind of future will we have in 30 years with the economic/land development model of “stay the course.” We’ll get Atlanta and LA gridlock and air pollution. I don’t want that and I don’t think the average citizen in this area wants that either. If they only could be educated that there is another choice…
    Conversely, think about the bang for the buck fixed rapid transit gives us as a community in the long term. We’ll have better land use in TOD around station areas, and in all areas of the region, as some of the ever-growing demand for homes will be captured by the greater densities allowed by TOD-zoning. That allows us to not have to extend more roads, schools, fire/police stations, sewer lines and other services further out into the now-rural areas. We will save money by the millions.
    Also, even as more dense communities sprout up over time along the transitway, system capacity can be added as easily as buying a few more rail cars and reducing headways (time bewteen transit vehicles ariving at the station), not building more lane-miles of roads that will simply be gobbled up by more development and cars in a few more years (see I-40, Capital Blvd, etc). Yes, when the time comes to meet increasing demand fueled by growth, would you rather pay a few million for several more rail vehicles, or hundreds of millions to widen the road?
    Imagine you are a recruiter for the Triangle. Think about the economic benefits of saying to ACME corporation looking to potentially relocate to your area “we can guarantee a 30 minute ride to work for your employees for the next 50 years.” Would you be able to say that to a company looking to relocate to RTP or downtown Raleigh in say 2030 under the “stay the course” model of today?
    What we need is a vision for the future. We can’t plan for tomorrow or even 2010. We must have a visionary goal for the next 30 to 50 years and beyond that will serve our growing needs and protect the resources we have and continue to make this a liveable place for us and the generations to follow.

  • Dana

    Interesting numbers, Jo. The turnpike group must have something up their sleeves to report numbers like that. Most of the existing portion of I-540 only cost $15M per mile to build. (see below).
    I’m not aware of any major engineering feats that need to occur (tunnels, bridges, etc), so the $28M per mile figure I cited two comments ago actually appears to be almost twice as expensive per mile as the existing sections.
    Concrete is more expensive these days, but the turnpike group’s high number (it was a range of 426M-767M), $767M, equates to $61M/mi for the 12.4mi stretch.
    So we built a road at $15M per mile, proposed a train that costs $28M/mile, and claim that the road extension will cost $61M/mi. Something’s rotten in Denmark.
    The rest of your points are great ones, and seem more like a zoning issue than a tax-payer subsidized transportation issue.
    Don’t get me wrong. I’m not a road lover, however the current alternatives are still WAY overpriced for the amount of service they would offer. We need another age of invention.
    Perhaps rail proponents would be amenable to paving a two-lane dedicated busway RIGHT WHERE the TTA line would go. Instead of trains, extremely nice buses which would not interact with traffic, could move up to 70mph along a dedicated thoroughfare to few stops. The upstart costs would be cheap, and actually set a foundation in place for a train when costs and technology get more reasonable.
    I don’t love buses, and they aren’t sexy. However a dedicated busway along the TTA’s corridor would be more flexible and cheaper per passenger than the train estimates while serving the same purpose of attracting people to an easy transit option. How much would that cost compared to the $808M proposed? Just a thought.
    ***
    I-40 to US70 5mi $130M 1997
    US70 to Leesville 2.5mi $18.7M 1999
    Leesville to US50 2000
    NC50 to FallsONRD 4.3mi $20.4M 2001
    FON to TriangleTBlvd 4mi
    $70M 2002
    Segments 1,2,4,5:
    15.8mi $238.8 $15.1M/mi
    numbers are from this site:
    http://www.kurumi.com/roads/3di/i540.html which cites references.

  • Dana

    Interesting numbers, Jo. The turnpike group must have something up their sleeves to report numbers like that. Most of the existing portion of I-540 only cost $15M per mile to build. (see below).
    I’m not aware of any major engineering feats that need to occur (tunnels, bridges, etc), so the $28M per mile figure I cited two comments ago actually appears to be almost twice as expensive per mile as the existing sections.
    Concrete is more expensive these days, but the turnpike group’s high number (it was a range of 426M-767M), $767M, equates to $61M/mi for the 12.4mi stretch.
    So we built a road at $15M per mile, proposed a train that costs $28M/mile, and claim that the road extension will cost $61M/mi. Something’s rotten in Denmark.
    The rest of your points are great ones, and seem more like a zoning issue than a tax-payer subsidized transportation issue.
    Don’t get me wrong. I’m not a road lover, however the current alternatives are still WAY overpriced for the amount of service they would offer. We need another age of invention.
    Perhaps rail proponents would be amenable to paving a two-lane dedicated busway RIGHT WHERE the TTA line would go. Instead of trains, extremely nice buses which would not interact with traffic, could move up to 70mph along a dedicated thoroughfare to few stops. The upstart costs would be cheap, and actually set a foundation in place for a train when costs and technology get more reasonable.
    I don’t love buses, and they aren’t sexy. However a dedicated busway along the TTA’s corridor would be more flexible and cheaper per passenger than the train estimates while serving the same purpose of attracting people to an easy transit option. How much would that cost compared to the $808M proposed? Just a thought.
    ***
    I-40 to US70 5mi $130M 1997
    US70 to Leesville 2.5mi $18.7M 1999
    Leesville to US50 2000
    NC50 to FallsONRD 4.3mi $20.4M 2001
    FON to TriangleTBlvd 4mi
    $70M 2002
    Segments 1,2,4,5:
    15.8mi $238.8 $15.1M/mi
    numbers are from this site:
    http://www.kurumi.com/roads/3di/i540.html which cites references.

  • http://www.raleighmsa.com/ Ernest Pecounis

    Michael Bacon,
    Dole and Burr supported TTA’s project with all their heart and as best as they could. However, one must be an idiot to stand behind a plan that gets weaker and more expensive by the day. Do you consider asking for 61% rational? If you think that with Dems in power we’ll get the funding for something that spells failure, you’d better think again. Nobody will help a project that serves a few people, plain and simple. If the local players are not in sync when it comes to vision, we won’t get any regional rail, no matter who is in power.

  • http://www.raleighmsa.com Ernest Pecounis

    Michael Bacon,
    Dole and Burr supported TTA’s project with all their heart and as best as they could. However, one must be an idiot to stand behind a plan that gets weaker and more expensive by the day. Do you consider asking for 61% rational? If you think that with Dems in power we’ll get the funding for something that spells failure, you’d better think again. Nobody will help a project that serves a few people, plain and simple. If the local players are not in sync when it comes to vision, we won’t get any regional rail, no matter who is in power.

  • Jeff S

    Nice posts Chief.
    Dana, cost-per-mile is short sighted. What about the cost of the 70,000 cars (your number) and the fuel that powers them every day? That’s taxpayer money as well and shouldn’t be ignored.
    My stance continues to be that easing the commute for those who choose to live on the outskirts of town should be the lowest priority. Sprawling development continues to strain the infrasturcture and demand an inordinant amount of resources in new roads and utilities. The cost per person increases exponentially the further out development pushes. This ties directly back to those cost-per-mile numbers. Encouraging the sprawl increases the number of miles that must be covered.
    The problem is too large to solve all at one time. A system that tries to serve everyone will only end up serving noone well. That we often feel the most obligated to serve the people who have chosen to live in the far-reaches of the city is most disturbing.

  • Jeff S

    Nice posts Chief.
    Dana, cost-per-mile is short sighted. What about the cost of the 70,000 cars (your number) and the fuel that powers them every day? That’s taxpayer money as well and shouldn’t be ignored.
    My stance continues to be that easing the commute for those who choose to live on the outskirts of town should be the lowest priority. Sprawling development continues to strain the infrasturcture and demand an inordinant amount of resources in new roads and utilities. The cost per person increases exponentially the further out development pushes. This ties directly back to those cost-per-mile numbers. Encouraging the sprawl increases the number of miles that must be covered.
    The problem is too large to solve all at one time. A system that tries to serve everyone will only end up serving noone well. That we often feel the most obligated to serve the people who have chosen to live in the far-reaches of the city is most disturbing.

  • ChiefJoJo

    “So we built a road at $15M per mile, proposed a train that costs $28M/mile, and claim that the road extension will cost $61M/mi. Something’s rotten in Denmark.”
    Dana, the previous estimates for Western Wake (540) were probably a few years old and construction materials have risen at ~15% annually since about ’03 or so (see TTA’s $ increase in Phase 1 from ’04 to ’06, RCC project increases, etc). Plus, as projects move from more preliminary engineering to construcion, estimates can increase due to scope changes and unanticipated costs.
    Oh, and we all have our opinions of whether TTA’s project serves the communities goals or not, but a rail line like that is actually a good deal at $28M/mile compared to other systems… Charlotte’s LRT (which the feds are paying ~48% costs) is $462M for 9.6mi = $48M/mi. Just some food for thought.

  • ChiefJoJo

    “So we built a road at $15M per mile, proposed a train that costs $28M/mile, and claim that the road extension will cost $61M/mi. Something’s rotten in Denmark.”
    Dana, the previous estimates for Western Wake (540) were probably a few years old and construction materials have risen at ~15% annually since about ’03 or so (see TTA’s $ increase in Phase 1 from ’04 to ’06, RCC project increases, etc). Plus, as projects move from more preliminary engineering to construcion, estimates can increase due to scope changes and unanticipated costs.
    Oh, and we all have our opinions of whether TTA’s project serves the communities goals or not, but a rail line like that is actually a good deal at $28M/mile compared to other systems… Charlotte’s LRT (which the feds are paying ~48% costs) is $462M for 9.6mi = $48M/mi. Just some food for thought.

  • http://profile.typekey.com/baconm/ Michael Bacon

    To respond to folks who were nice enough to comment on my comment…
    My comments on SkyTran: I suppose it comes from frustration when TTA spent 10 years and had endless public meetings about corridors, modes, types, and everything, come up with what I think was a pretty innovative solution that blended old technology and new and did it in a reasonable feasible way, and when it comes time to talk turkey, the only thing you here is, “what about this other whizbang gadget?!?” Monorails and PRT have been the “next big thing” for about 40 years now, and the pilot systems, such as that at the WVU campus, have shown the cost to be pretty high and the usage to be pretty moderate. I’m just not buying it, particularly for a region as spread out and discombobulous as the Triangle. Rule of thumb: if your technology looks like it’s straight out of the Jetsons, you might wait until we have butler robots, wooshing doors, and antenae hats before we spend big bucks on it.
    As to the cost/rider of the TTA system, it’s important to note that, if I remember right, the feds won’t let you count development that occurs around the transit sites because of the train. In other words, even though there’s already been massive speculative real estate transactions and some development around the transit sites, even before it’s been approved, much less built, you can’t project any more people to live near the stations or for there to be any new shops or offices near the stations that might increase ridership. What that means is, in the end, unless we’re complete idiots, the actual cost per rider should be a lot lower than the projected number. They’re just not allowed to use those numbers because it’s an enforcable standard, whereas it’s hard to standardize your predictions about what nearby development will be. Highway projections are not under the same constraints, because you don’t get the kind of super-concentrated development that you do with transit stops.
    Dana brings up the question of why we should use the rail corridor when it doesn’t serve certain areas. That’s where history gets interesting. Sure, if you look at north Raleigh and the new parts (most) of Cary, the train doesn’t serve those well. But those were built for the car, by the car, and of the car. The only hope for getting those areas on mass transit is to see some decent infill development to get the density up, then serve them with buses. But back to the rail line, it IS the reason why many towns exist. Durham is the fourth, soon to be third, largest city in NC, and at the end of the Civil War it was farmland. (It got its name because Dr. Durham donated land for a train station, which became “Durham Station,” which became the seed for the town.) Cary and Morrisville were stations for loading agricultural products to take to market, and soon markets grew up around them. Off that main line, Oxford, Creedmoor, Butner, Roxboro, Clayton, Smithfield, Wilson, Knightdale, Wendell, and Fuqua-Varina all grew up on rail lines. And, of course, even though RTP didn’t develop around it, the rail does go right through the middle of the park. The rail is the old backbone of the region. And these days, it’s quite underused. So why walk away from a ready-made corridor and build a new one, which would almost certainly require eminent domain condemnations and demolition of houses, on top of expensive land aquisitions?
    Dana repeatedly brings up Atlanta as a model. I agree with the previous criticisms of Atlanta, but I think it also bears mentioning that what we’re doing is very similar to what Washington, DC did 30-40 years ago, in perhaps the most successful mass transit project in the past half century. DC’s biggest problem these days is that they can’t build the new lines fast enough, and that large new stations are crowded at rush hour as soon as they open. Atlanta made mistakes, sure, but I don’t think we’re repeating them.
    I’m also very much in favor of bus rapid transit. I think after Phase 1 of the rail gets built, one of the next big projects needs to be High Occupancy/Toll lanes down the middle of 40, and frequent express buses that take advantage of them, making the Chapel Hill/Meadowmont/Heritage Square/Southpoint/RTP/Airport/N. Cary/NCSU/Dtn. Raleigh link. (HOT lanes are lanes where carpoolers ride free and single occupancy cars can pay a toll.)
    Finally, as someone who’s a proponent of certain road projects as well (the East End Connector tops Durham’s biggest transportation wish list at the moment, for very good reason), I can say that yes, construction costs have increased that much recently. I don’t really understand why, but I think a big part of it is that, in addition to materials, values for open land in the Triangle are a whole lot higher than they were when the first parts of I-540 went in. So I don’t think $61M/mi is all that high.

  • http://profile.typekey.com/baconm/ Michael Bacon

    To respond to folks who were nice enough to comment on my comment…
    My comments on SkyTran: I suppose it comes from frustration when TTA spent 10 years and had endless public meetings about corridors, modes, types, and everything, come up with what I think was a pretty innovative solution that blended old technology and new and did it in a reasonable feasible way, and when it comes time to talk turkey, the only thing you here is, “what about this other whizbang gadget?!?” Monorails and PRT have been the “next big thing” for about 40 years now, and the pilot systems, such as that at the WVU campus, have shown the cost to be pretty high and the usage to be pretty moderate. I’m just not buying it, particularly for a region as spread out and discombobulous as the Triangle. Rule of thumb: if your technology looks like it’s straight out of the Jetsons, you might wait until we have butler robots, wooshing doors, and antenae hats before we spend big bucks on it.
    As to the cost/rider of the TTA system, it’s important to note that, if I remember right, the feds won’t let you count development that occurs around the transit sites because of the train. In other words, even though there’s already been massive speculative real estate transactions and some development around the transit sites, even before it’s been approved, much less built, you can’t project any more people to live near the stations or for there to be any new shops or offices near the stations that might increase ridership. What that means is, in the end, unless we’re complete idiots, the actual cost per rider should be a lot lower than the projected number. They’re just not allowed to use those numbers because it’s an enforcable standard, whereas it’s hard to standardize your predictions about what nearby development will be. Highway projections are not under the same constraints, because you don’t get the kind of super-concentrated development that you do with transit stops.
    Dana brings up the question of why we should use the rail corridor when it doesn’t serve certain areas. That’s where history gets interesting. Sure, if you look at north Raleigh and the new parts (most) of Cary, the train doesn’t serve those well. But those were built for the car, by the car, and of the car. The only hope for getting those areas on mass transit is to see some decent infill development to get the density up, then serve them with buses. But back to the rail line, it IS the reason why many towns exist. Durham is the fourth, soon to be third, largest city in NC, and at the end of the Civil War it was farmland. (It got its name because Dr. Durham donated land for a train station, which became “Durham Station,” which became the seed for the town.) Cary and Morrisville were stations for loading agricultural products to take to market, and soon markets grew up around them. Off that main line, Oxford, Creedmoor, Butner, Roxboro, Clayton, Smithfield, Wilson, Knightdale, Wendell, and Fuqua-Varina all grew up on rail lines. And, of course, even though RTP didn’t develop around it, the rail does go right through the middle of the park. The rail is the old backbone of the region. And these days, it’s quite underused. So why walk away from a ready-made corridor and build a new one, which would almost certainly require eminent domain condemnations and demolition of houses, on top of expensive land aquisitions?
    Dana repeatedly brings up Atlanta as a model. I agree with the previous criticisms of Atlanta, but I think it also bears mentioning that what we’re doing is very similar to what Washington, DC did 30-40 years ago, in perhaps the most successful mass transit project in the past half century. DC’s biggest problem these days is that they can’t build the new lines fast enough, and that large new stations are crowded at rush hour as soon as they open. Atlanta made mistakes, sure, but I don’t think we’re repeating them.
    I’m also very much in favor of bus rapid transit. I think after Phase 1 of the rail gets built, one of the next big projects needs to be High Occupancy/Toll lanes down the middle of 40, and frequent express buses that take advantage of them, making the Chapel Hill/Meadowmont/Heritage Square/Southpoint/RTP/Airport/N. Cary/NCSU/Dtn. Raleigh link. (HOT lanes are lanes where carpoolers ride free and single occupancy cars can pay a toll.)
    Finally, as someone who’s a proponent of certain road projects as well (the East End Connector tops Durham’s biggest transportation wish list at the moment, for very good reason), I can say that yes, construction costs have increased that much recently. I don’t really understand why, but I think a big part of it is that, in addition to materials, values for open land in the Triangle are a whole lot higher than they were when the first parts of I-540 went in. So I don’t think $61M/mi is all that high.